RAFMSA shit hits fan

PaulW · 10-08-2014, 08:04 PM

For anyone who has access to the RAFMSA forum please have a look and comment if you want. The bananas has royally hit the fan with regard to a comment i made about the handling of the cancellation of sprinting at Barkston. I'm not grapesed off with the cancellation as such but the lack luster way things have gone behind the scenes with regard to promoting it.

http://rafmotorsports.proboards.com/...scrollTo=34938

Paul

ardonfast · 10-08-2014, 08:47 PM

Would love to, but i get the same result as i allways have, abaslutely. fUck allps there i go again thinking you will no what i mean, sorry,
I mean is when i joined last year it said pending( and it still dose the same,
Then even trying to view as a geust it fookes abatt

Can you do us a favor and copy/peaste the transcript ? Thanks

big_jim · 10-08-2014, 09:03 PM

Darren's dummy spit.... Via private message

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darrenb
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42 minutes ago Quote
Hi Big Jim,

Your comments are most welcome on the forum by me. I wouldn't have posted my thoughts in reply to Paul Waterhouse, unless I was prepared to engage, and I am always prepared to admit when I am wrong.

In answer to some of you points that you raise:

Also Darren other series do let cars run without doors if they do not come with them as standard (which my shell kit does not). I would lay the safety of my car down against anyone else's on the grid as it is over and above the regulations of MSA, which some of the RAF personnel cars wouldn't be... Some have no cages at all!!

I was not aware that other series permitted cars to run without protective coverings where they would normally be expected to fit. The concern raised by my rescue team was not one of the roll over protection of the car, as I am confident that you would not want to place your own life at risk, but more about the intrusion of foreign objects into the car. It raised discussion principally because no-one had approached me as the duty risk holder to establish the credentials of the car and why it should be acceptable to run. That is an education piece for the staff about who can allow what to run. We have a wide acceptance of the vehicles that we permit and the unusual will often draw attention when it is not actually an issue. Most Seven type cars have no doors, it was just unexpected to see a saloon style car running without them, especially when it wasn't expected. In my experience of National B sprints I never saw a saloon style car running without doors and certainly without a bonnet, exposing the brake reservoirs. I remain unconvinced that you would be allowed to run your car in a National B sprint without the bonnet in place.

With regards to the whole future of the sprint series, I personally feel that the reason there is not enough RAF personnel is a problem with the recruiting and nothing else.
We as civilian associate members from the 16v mini forum we have bolstered the numbers for years now and are clearly the most committed forum and non RAF group out there.

You are absolutely correct. The problem is recruitment, but the solution is not to expand the number of civilian associates taking part as it represents a high risk to the RAFMSA when we are not complying with UK MSA regulations in doing what we do. I am very grateful to the 16V Mini club for their support over the years as the series would have died a long time ago when it was evident that we had not replaced the numbers of those Serving personnel that had moved onto racing. The solution however, is not to keep ploughing on with what we have as it isn't going anywhere from an organisational perspective. The money we make goes straight back into paying for the professional staff and the insurance and we only just cover the bills. I cannot go down the route of MSA compliance as that would negate the whole function of what we set up, as the entry costs would go up to match those of Nat B sprints, as that is what we would be obliged to deliver. The RAFMSA Speed Challenge does not exist to serve the Civilian Associates as many seem to think. I have had no expressions of gratitude for what the RAFMSA has done in providing very cheap motorsport to non-RAF people for many years, just despair that the RAF is taking away the cheap, loose rules events. You say that it is 'nothing else' but have you ever thought what might happen if we had a serious accident at the venue? None of the Associate drivers are covered in any way by the RAFMSA for their participation and the fact that we work to the spirit of the MSA rules rather than the letter means that I carry the risk to run the events as they are. The tightening of the rules around the risk of running these RAF events means that we have reached a point where we cannot justify it anymore, especially when most of the Associates members were enrolled to keep the series going in contravention to the constitution of the RAFMSA.

More needs to be done to bring new faces to the event, if a group of mini fans can do it out in the civvy world then a "highly organised services" group should be able to do it.

The 16V mini club is a group of like minded car enthusiast that have had the fortune to be a part of a cheap series in which they can go racing. The RAF is not such a club. The personnel have many draws on their time that means that motor sport doesn't feature highly. Many serving personnel can access a lot of other sports that are cheaper to fill their time, and it is the dedicated few that we find that want to be a part of what the RAFMSA delivers, so there are no quick recruitment drives that will replenish the numbers. I simply don't have the time to keep doing what I have been doing when it comes to the Speed Challenge as well as support those personnel that I have competing in other series (and maybe take part myself from time to time). The lack of respect by those that have posted on the forum for the decision I have made highlights the selfish desire to keep doing cheap motor sport at the behest of the RAFMSA, without consideration of the impact that it has. I am sorry that it has come to this, but people are making it sound like the RAFMSA owes them something for giving them cheap motorsport and I just don't get that. As I have said elsewhere, once we have taken stock of what we need to do to provide a manageable, affordable event that will give a Service person a grass roots start in motorsport then we will look at how we expand that back out and invite the various motor clubs that have participated in the series to be a part of it once more.

The fact that the RAF have not had a pay rise in over five years is a weak excuse. Out in the real world we have also been doing through a recession don't you know and as a self employed person myself I have still managed to make the effort due to dwindling profits and wages.

I agree. The financial situation is common to most of our drivers and is not an excuse.

My final response is this. We have provided the 16V mini club with cheap sprint events for many years in return for which you have supported the series. People like to ask what are the new RAF people going to do to get into motorsport now. Well I haven't seen any of those clubs that we have provided for offering to take any of the few Serving personnel I do have under their wing and offer some other form of cheap motorsport. Does the 16V mini club run Auto solos, or Auto tests that my guys and gals could come and try? Or are you just disappointed that you can't have a blast around Barkston for the day for £50 anymore and you don't actually care about how many Service personnel are at the event?

Regards

Darren

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PaulW · 10-08-2014, 09:15 PM

I feel like i'm playing into the RAFMSA's hands a bit here and they have got there way. Bill will be along i'm sure to explain. I will not take part in Sprinting at Barkston Heath under the current management of this venue.

The thread i posted the link to has been moderated to the point of censorship. It would appear as a paid up civilian member our views do not count. I feel sick in my stomach. I have not come across this in 10 years of being around various forums. I will be cancelling my membership to the RAFMSA for the foreseeable future. I still live in hope that they can sort something out and will participate again but not under the current regime.

Please do not let my decision sway your participation in the rest of the years sprinting, make your own mind up.

Paul

big_jim · 10-08-2014, 09:52 PM

Bill has stepped down as COC!

bill2b · 10-08-2014, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by big_jim

Bill has stepped down as COC!

big_jim · 10-08-2014, 10:03 PM

And another thread locked with all our comments deleted. The RAFMSA forum is a joke!

Bill just buy a mini and join us, sack them off altogether.

bill2b · 10-08-2014, 10:09 PM

1

bill2b · 10-08-2014, 10:10 PM

2

big_jim · 10-08-2014, 10:12 PM

Did you miss my comments before they were deleted bill?

bill2b · 10-08-2014, 10:20 PM

So this my friends is how the RAFMSA work, Chris Stater the bloke who closed this thread is a lower ranker who wants to go higher.
He was also very vocal against me at pembrey

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uah48eaU1qk&list=UUkMDf5VReIus1u5djpPR_GA

Apparently he felt aggrieved that I took my line into the right hander, ho hum,
Red car behind me "the pear flashing his lights" lol
After this "Darren" came out with new RAFMSA rules which stated that should anyone get their bumper alongside your rear bumper you should give them room to get through.
Looks like Darren wants to re write the blue book to suit the RAF

bill2b · 10-08-2014, 10:23 PM

Sorry Jim
I only copied my comments

bill2b · 10-08-2014, 10:25 PM

Try logging on to the RAFMSA site now, it is in "maintenance mode"

We are better off out of it folks
#

big_jim · 10-08-2014, 10:31 PM

Didn't know if you had chance to see it before everything was censored....

Front bumper alongside rear means nothing. It's always been half a car length in my book.

bill2b · 10-08-2014, 10:35 PM

Quote:

The money we make goes straight back into paying for the professional staff and the insurance and we only just cover the bills

40 drivers = £2000
Al, Malcomb, sumo, paramedic = £600

So the insurance is £1400 per meeting

With 40 drivers we were making a big profit, Thanks to Sumo, myself and the 16v lot we easily made this sort of entry so money was not the issue
Don't listen to the bullshit folks

10-08-2014, 08:04 PM	#1
PaulW Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: west yorkshire Posts: 3,853 Subframe: Home Made CC: 1800cc Make: Other ECU: Megasquirt MX5 Pnp	RAFMSA shit hits fan For anyone who has access to the RAFMSA forum please have a look and comment if you want. The bananas has royally hit the fan with regard to a comment i made about the handling of the cancellation of sprinting at Barkston. I'm not grapesed off with the cancellation as such but the lack luster way things have gone behind the scenes with regard to promoting it. http://rafmotorsports.proboards.com/...scrollTo=34938 Paul

10-08-2014, 08:47 PM	#2
ardonfast Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: dunkeswell airfeald devon Posts: 7,843 Subframe: AMT CC: 2000 Make: Vauxhall ECU: dizzy/webers	Would love to, but i get the same result as i allways have, abaslutely. fUck allps there i go again thinking you will no what i mean, sorry, I mean is when i joined last year it said pending( and it still dose the same, Then even trying to view as a geust it fookes abatt Can you do us a favor and copy/peaste the transcript ? Thanks __________________ "yuck ,more like a 3 r2" http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=tb261HwQNDQ SAY WHAT YOU BELEVE,,BELEVE WHAT YOU LIKE, http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=3JhaTwP7uuk Last edited by ardonfast; 10-08-2014 at 09:04 PM.

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10-08-2014, 09:03 PM	#3
big_jim Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Lincolnshire Posts: 383	Darren's dummy spit.... Via private message RAF Motorsports Forum Home Profile Messages Welcome bigjim. Logout The RAFMSA Speed Challenge Reply « Prev1Next » Participants: darrenb, bigjim darrenb Moderator 42 minutes ago Quote Hi Big Jim, Your comments are most welcome on the forum by me. I wouldn't have posted my thoughts in reply to Paul Waterhouse, unless I was prepared to engage, and I am always prepared to admit when I am wrong. In answer to some of you points that you raise: Also Darren other series do let cars run without doors if they do not come with them as standard (which my shell kit does not). I would lay the safety of my car down against anyone else's on the grid as it is over and above the regulations of MSA, which some of the RAF personnel cars wouldn't be... Some have no cages at all!! I was not aware that other series permitted cars to run without protective coverings where they would normally be expected to fit. The concern raised by my rescue team was not one of the roll over protection of the car, as I am confident that you would not want to place your own life at risk, but more about the intrusion of foreign objects into the car. It raised discussion principally because no-one had approached me as the duty risk holder to establish the credentials of the car and why it should be acceptable to run. That is an education piece for the staff about who can allow what to run. We have a wide acceptance of the vehicles that we permit and the unusual will often draw attention when it is not actually an issue. Most Seven type cars have no doors, it was just unexpected to see a saloon style car running without them, especially when it wasn't expected. In my experience of National B sprints I never saw a saloon style car running without doors and certainly without a bonnet, exposing the brake reservoirs. I remain unconvinced that you would be allowed to run your car in a National B sprint without the bonnet in place. With regards to the whole future of the sprint series, I personally feel that the reason there is not enough RAF personnel is a problem with the recruiting and nothing else. We as civilian associate members from the 16v mini forum we have bolstered the numbers for years now and are clearly the most committed forum and non RAF group out there. You are absolutely correct. The problem is recruitment, but the solution is not to expand the number of civilian associates taking part as it represents a high risk to the RAFMSA when we are not complying with UK MSA regulations in doing what we do. I am very grateful to the 16V Mini club for their support over the years as the series would have died a long time ago when it was evident that we had not replaced the numbers of those Serving personnel that had moved onto racing. The solution however, is not to keep ploughing on with what we have as it isn't going anywhere from an organisational perspective. The money we make goes straight back into paying for the professional staff and the insurance and we only just cover the bills. I cannot go down the route of MSA compliance as that would negate the whole function of what we set up, as the entry costs would go up to match those of Nat B sprints, as that is what we would be obliged to deliver. The RAFMSA Speed Challenge does not exist to serve the Civilian Associates as many seem to think. I have had no expressions of gratitude for what the RAFMSA has done in providing very cheap motorsport to non-RAF people for many years, just despair that the RAF is taking away the cheap, loose rules events. You say that it is 'nothing else' but have you ever thought what might happen if we had a serious accident at the venue? None of the Associate drivers are covered in any way by the RAFMSA for their participation and the fact that we work to the spirit of the MSA rules rather than the letter means that I carry the risk to run the events as they are. The tightening of the rules around the risk of running these RAF events means that we have reached a point where we cannot justify it anymore, especially when most of the Associates members were enrolled to keep the series going in contravention to the constitution of the RAFMSA. More needs to be done to bring new faces to the event, if a group of mini fans can do it out in the civvy world then a "highly organised services" group should be able to do it. The 16V mini club is a group of like minded car enthusiast that have had the fortune to be a part of a cheap series in which they can go racing. The RAF is not such a club. The personnel have many draws on their time that means that motor sport doesn't feature highly. Many serving personnel can access a lot of other sports that are cheaper to fill their time, and it is the dedicated few that we find that want to be a part of what the RAFMSA delivers, so there are no quick recruitment drives that will replenish the numbers. I simply don't have the time to keep doing what I have been doing when it comes to the Speed Challenge as well as support those personnel that I have competing in other series (and maybe take part myself from time to time). The lack of respect by those that have posted on the forum for the decision I have made highlights the selfish desire to keep doing cheap motor sport at the behest of the RAFMSA, without consideration of the impact that it has. I am sorry that it has come to this, but people are making it sound like the RAFMSA owes them something for giving them cheap motorsport and I just don't get that. As I have said elsewhere, once we have taken stock of what we need to do to provide a manageable, affordable event that will give a Service person a grass roots start in motorsport then we will look at how we expand that back out and invite the various motor clubs that have participated in the series to be a part of it once more. The fact that the RAF have not had a pay rise in over five years is a weak excuse. Out in the real world we have also been doing through a recession don't you know and as a self employed person myself I have still managed to make the effort due to dwindling profits and wages. I agree. The financial situation is common to most of our drivers and is not an excuse. My final response is this. We have provided the 16V mini club with cheap sprint events for many years in return for which you have supported the series. People like to ask what are the new RAF people going to do to get into motorsport now. Well I haven't seen any of those clubs that we have provided for offering to take any of the few Serving personnel I do have under their wing and offer some other form of cheap motorsport. Does the 16V mini club run Auto solos, or Auto tests that my guys and gals could come and try? Or are you just disappointed that you can't have a blast around Barkston for the day for £50 anymore and you don't actually care about how many Service personnel are at the event? Regards Darren « Prev1Next » Reply to Message This Forum Hosted For FREE By ProBoards Get Your Own Free Message Boards & Free Forums! Terms of Service \| Privacy Policy \| Notice \| FTC Disclosure \| Report Abuse \| Mobile \| Advertise Here Back Top Dashboard Desktop

10-08-2014, 09:15 PM	#4
PaulW Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: west yorkshire Posts: 3,853 Subframe: Home Made CC: 1800cc Make: Other ECU: Megasquirt MX5 Pnp	I feel like i'm playing into the RAFMSA's hands a bit here and they have got there way. Bill will be along i'm sure to explain. I will not take part in Sprinting at Barkston Heath under the current management of this venue. The thread i posted the link to has been moderated to the point of censorship. It would appear as a paid up civilian member our views do not count. I feel sick in my stomach. I have not come across this in 10 years of being around various forums. I will be cancelling my membership to the RAFMSA for the foreseeable future. I still live in hope that they can sort something out and will participate again but not under the current regime. Please do not let my decision sway your participation in the rest of the years sprinting, make your own mind up. Paul

10-08-2014, 09:52 PM	#5
big_jim Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Lincolnshire Posts: 383	Bill has stepped down as COC!

10-08-2014, 10:03 PM	#7
big_jim Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Lincolnshire Posts: 383	And another thread locked with all our comments deleted. The RAFMSA forum is a joke! Bill just buy a mini and join us, sack them off altogether.

10-08-2014, 10:12 PM	#10
big_jim Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Lincolnshire Posts: 383	Did you miss my comments before they were deleted bill?

10-08-2014, 10:23 PM	#12
bill2b Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: lincoln Posts: 448 CC: 2000 ECU: unlocked one	Sorry Jim I only copied my comments

10-08-2014, 10:25 PM	#13
bill2b Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: lincoln Posts: 448 CC: 2000 ECU: unlocked one	Try logging on to the RAFMSA site now, it is in "maintenance mode" We are better off out of it folks #

10-08-2014, 10:31 PM	#14
big_jim Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Lincolnshire Posts: 383	Didn't know if you had chance to see it before everything was censored.... Front bumper alongside rear means nothing. It's always been half a car length in my book.