16v Mini Club Forums  

Go Back   16v Mini Club Forums > Builds > Honda Builds

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-07-2013, 09:59 PM   #2401
miniwade
Senior Member
 
miniwade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: leeds
Posts: 2,719
Subframe: Watson
CC: B18 c6
Make: Honda
ECU: dta
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveyjones View Post
Matey just take some time away from the mini and let it be for a while. Then go back to it later on after the mist has settled and clear head returns. Yeh easy to write and yep all your hard work etc, gutting now, different in time.

Too me it all looks the same as before so I don't think it's cam timing more like isolated to that bore i.e injector on that bore etc etc but it's only that bore. The rest look like it;s been running rich but intact.So does the fault lie with something only associated with that bore?? food for thought later on me thinks...

My advice would be too drop the bonnet and leave it for a while then either drop a factory standard type 'r' in or a b16 a2 without or the mods and enjoy it for what it is, plenty quick enough for a mini.

Its a time thing
eh up dave hows it going?
its a different cylinder to last, first time was cylinder 3 and this time was cylinder 1, im fairly adamant that the cams were adjusted to far (4 degrees advanced on inlet and 4 degrees retarded on the exhaust)which is causing the problem, believe it or not im still feeling quite positive and looking forward to repairing it, that said i bought myself a little clio 172 last week to turn into a track car so i may spend some time on that before coming back to the mini.
the engine is back out of the mini already
miniwade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 10:07 PM   #2402
miniwade
Senior Member
 
miniwade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: leeds
Posts: 2,719
Subframe: Watson
CC: B18 c6
Make: Honda
ECU: dta
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gadget555 View Post
My hart goes out to you! so much time and effort for this to happen again, I dont think it has anything to do with cam timeing as there are no other marks on any of the other pistons or valves from what I can see from your photo's this time it is no 1 that let go last time it was no 4. If your cams were to far advanced then would it not leave a mark on all the pistons as all the valves on that cam would be opening the same amount?
i agree mate about the timing and it not affecting other cylinders but there is no other explanation, i was litterally just on vtec and barely accelerating, i dont think it had gone lean as i keep a close eye on the wideband,
my other reason for thinking it was timig related was that i had driven it for a couple of weeks with the verniers set at 0 and no problems at all then when it went on the dyno and we tweaked the cams for best power and then on the way home.... bang, i then rebuilt it again only for it to do it again in next no time, maybe i should of set them to 0 again and seen if it was ok
miniwade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2013, 11:00 PM   #2403
Mully
Senior Member
 
Mully's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: dublin
Posts: 349
Subframe: Home Made
CC: 1300
Make: Toyota
ECU: greddy
Default

i did this to 2 engines aswell turned out to be a bad injector
Mully is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 10:03 AM   #2404
miniwade
Senior Member
 
miniwade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: leeds
Posts: 2,719
Subframe: Watson
CC: B18 c6
Make: Honda
ECU: dta
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mully View Post
i did this to 2 engines aswell turned out to be a bad injector
i wish it was an injector but it was on a completely different cylinder than last time and the injectors havent been removed from the itb's at any time.
miniwade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 10:09 AM   #2405
miniwade
Senior Member
 
miniwade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: leeds
Posts: 2,719
Subframe: Watson
CC: B18 c6
Make: Honda
ECU: dta
Default

im pretty certain its a timing issue as the only parts that were re used were the crank and cams, the car was driven for a few weeks before it went to the dyno with no contact issues only after it came away from the dyno after we had adjusted the cams on the verniers were there any issues, yes its wierd that if number 1 cylinder has gone then so should of cylinder 4 also last time cylinder 3 went but not cylinder 2, im guessing that the piston to valve clearance is so minute that it clears most of the time then if you catch it at the wrong time the valve is staying open that fraction to long and just gettin the slightest tap and just triggering the chain of it completely destroying the engine before i get chance to dip clutch and switch it off.
miniwade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 10:22 AM   #2406
Kaison
Senior Member
 
Kaison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Brighton, England
Posts: 1,292
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by miniwade View Post
im pretty certain its a timing issue as the only parts that were re used were the crank and cams, the car was driven for a few weeks before it went to the dyno with no contact issues only after it came away from the dyno after we had adjusted the cams on the verniers were there any issues, yes its wierd that if number 1 cylinder has gone then so should of cylinder 4 also last time cylinder 3 went but not cylinder 2, im guessing that the piston to valve clearance is so minute that it clears most of the time then if you catch it at the wrong time the valve is staying open that fraction to long and just gettin the slightest tap and just triggering the chain of it completely destroying the engine before i get chance to dip clutch and switch it off.
I guess in theory if you have the slightest in play in lets say your crank, it could be eccentrically allowing the pistons to peak above normal height the slightest of amounts, we're talking below paper thickness. Or perhaps the cam's being distorted or worn making the valves protrude too deep or for too long.

Perhaps next time seek peak power from somewhere other than valvetrain tolerances.
__________________
Past; 1992 Rover Mini Spite 1275, 1996 Vauxhall Corsa C20XE.
Present; 1994 Suzuki Swift GTI, 1996 Vauxhall Corsa C20XE.
I only bow under braking.
Kaison is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 03:34 PM   #2407
wilp99
Senior Member
 
wilp99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: TAMPA
Posts: 2,763
Subframe: Allspeed
CC: 1797
Make: Honda
ECU: S300
Default

Did y'all ever actually degree the cams according to the birth sheet? I think u had a v2v clearance issue. And giving u had them 8 degrees separated (which is a lot) your overlap was just too much.
__________________
Tampa, Florida... Wilson Motor Works.. WMW4LIFE
wilp99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 08:09 PM   #2408
miniwade
Senior Member
 
miniwade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: leeds
Posts: 2,719
Subframe: Watson
CC: B18 c6
Make: Honda
ECU: dta
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilp99 View Post
Did y'all ever actually degree the cams according to the birth sheet? I think u had a v2v clearance issue. And giving u had them 8 degrees separated (which is a lot) your overlap was just too much.
I think your right there mate
Oh well pick myself up shake myself down and back on the job as they say.
I bought a complete b16a2 tonight so tomorrow I'm going to take the head off fit my springs and retainers, and throw it on my b16 bottom end and drop it in, I WILL be at mitp one way or another but will be rolling b16 power not b18 so let's see if I can beat my previous 13.3
Game on lol
miniwade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 08:33 PM   #2409
daveyjones
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,451
Subframe: Other
Make: Other
Default

Rit tout old love, you have a cuppa yorkie tea and bounce right back what a star... was gonna say you want to buy my mini. I am not using it at all lately bloody waste.

I've been playing with alloy forming etc on me cycle kart thing to see how I fair and also playing with some welding jobs for my mate who is restoring an old Wolseley 10 car whilst he is starting do a few jobs on our old series 1 landy. she runs now but the rad leaks 590.00 for an exchange one,that'll be a no then. Found a company that will repair and pop new core in for 180 bargain.

And excuse me if i'm wrong but unless you have a weird 5 cylinder honda block the photo's you posted show damage to no1 or no4 cylinder??? not number 3??? you check the photo
daveyjones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 08:33 PM   #2410
daveyjones
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,451
Subframe: Other
Make: Other
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by miniwade View Post
Just for the hell of it, here's what's happened again
I'm out of the game and off to cry


Looks like no1 to me???
daveyjones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 08:39 PM   #2411
daveyjones
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,451
Subframe: Other
Make: Other
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by miniwade View Post
I think I might of found my misfire lol






This is a lesson for leaving things as they were and just be happy with what I had
It's fair to say it won't be running again anytime this year.
Ha Ha new it, im not senile!!!
daveyjones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 08:46 PM   #2412
miniwade
Senior Member
 
miniwade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: leeds
Posts: 2,719
Subframe: Watson
CC: B18 c6
Make: Honda
ECU: dta
Default

ha ha you clever sod you are right the first one was cylinder 4 and the second one was number 1
miniwade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 09:12 PM   #2413
daveyjones
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,451
Subframe: Other
Make: Other
Default

This is why I feel it aint a cam timing issue, thats another melt down and that is fuel mix vs plug heat. i.e fuel ratio increasing to pre ignition. Usually if it is really bad the old carb engines used to run on.

http://www.kb-silvolite.com/features...n=read&F_id=46

This bit

Light, interrupted detonation can be withstood by most engines over a long period without damage. More severe, maintained detonation results in erosion-like removal of piston material from the top land and piston crown. The cylinder head and head gasket can also be damaged in a similar way. Components in the combustion chamber (e.g. the sparking plug) can then be so severely heated up that pre-ignition and the associated severe thermal overload and melting of the piston occur.

Heavy, sustained detonation results in land and skirt fractures within short periods. These are not usually accompanied by melting or scuffing.

Basically the plug turns into a thermal lance and it melts all in the way.

My problem again is why on only one cylinder??? no damage else where they even look as if they have been running rich?? i.e cooler to some extent, were they robbing the fuel from the other cylinders??
daveyjones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 09:23 PM   #2414
miniwade
Senior Member
 
miniwade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: leeds
Posts: 2,719
Subframe: Watson
CC: B18 c6
Make: Honda
ECU: dta
Default

I'm with wilp on this one, when I measured the valve to valve clearance with the cams at zero they were very very close and add to the fact we had advanced and retarded the inlet and exhaust cams by 4 degrees it was just a matter of time.
It is Definately not going lean on a single cylinder, I was doing 30mph on part throttle and fueling on the wideband was fine.
I drove it over the weekend and ragged the nuts out of it and no problems with anything if it was going to go lean it would of done long before then, there were no detonation noises at all, it has a 6 month old pump brand new injectors, a turbo smart 180 fuel pressure regulator.
What you have to remember Dave is that before we put the car on the dyno and moved the cams I had been driving the car for weeks with not one single issue yet once cams were adjusted within 4 miles the engine self distructed itself then once rebuilt the car decided to do the same again, I'm 100% certain it's a clearance issue.
Surely if it was down to fueling it would of self distructed before if was mapped as the fueling was a long way out at that time?
miniwade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2013, 09:51 PM   #2415
daveyjones
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,451
Subframe: Other
Make: Other
Default

I can see what you are saying but if you popped it on the dyno then drove it 4 miles then bang although you had it set up the engine would have sounded like a bag of spanners if it was clearance imo. If you start to bounce valves off piston crowns you will hear it and fell it, melt down through fueling you will not so much until it becomes that hot it disintegrates very quickly.

Why if you think it is down to clearance did only one cylinder suffer again?? All four should show some signs of contact on crowns or valves. Or are we suggesting that your endfloats on the big/small ends are different by quite a lot or the cam lobes are out or the cam bearings are out all on one cylinder enough to cause failure on that scale with no tapping noises or vibration etc.

Soz but maybe i'm a grumpy old pessimist but just don't equate in my head.

I still feel it is an outside part causing the problem not the cam timing. 30 mph makes no odds to the mixture and unless you were in 3rd gear you would have been off v-tec so in theory you should be worse for over fueling, your engine at 4000rpm mean the valves open at 30-40 times per second (if my calcs are correct). So it would be rattling like crazy, that's why I feel its mixture, you were melting then stop, game over.
daveyjones is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.