16v Mini Club Forums  

Go Back   16v Mini Club Forums > General Public Area > Rover Chat

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-07-2018, 01:44 AM   #1
benvvc
Senior Member
 
benvvc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: west midlands
Posts: 118
Subframe: Watson
CC: 1800
Make: Rover
ECU: standard
Default Brakes????

I'm running Watson's frame on my vvc mini so mgf brakes upfront. No servo and a yellow tag master cylinder. Looking for suggestions to improve as they are shocking. I've bled them but no better. Can't get them to lock up . Feel as though there is no braking until your nearly touching the floor but even then there isn't much force to them. What are you guys/girls using? Cheers Ben
benvvc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 06:02 AM   #2
InstantCustard
Senior Member
 
InstantCustard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Whitworth, Lancashire
Posts: 5,671
Subframe: Home Made
CC: 1.8
Make: Rover
ECU: Emerald K6
Default

A used to have a yellow tag with standard Mini 8.4” 2 pots, drilled discs and green stuff pads that used to stop me fine.
All I have done since is upgrade to MiniSport 4 pots and that was only to go vented and stop the brake fade when I was being a bit silly.
Must be something wrong with your setup if it’s not stopping you, a lot of people think they’ve bled the brakes but find they’ve not bled them enough.
Have you got the front and rear lines connected correctly?
What rear cylinders are you using?
What calipers and pads are you using?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnard View Post
couldnt be bothered to stretch that far to pull it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardonfast View Post
Haz obviously don't like custard , my Mrs spits it out to!
I love it
InstantCustard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 07:40 AM   #3
edk83
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 546
Default

I'm using mgf calipers and discs and I'm going to be adding a remote servo.
I don't have that much pedal movement though its just really hard work, but I'm also not sure I could lock them up in the dry.

The same brakes on my tf with the factory servo are still not overly sharp but they do stop the car.

Is it an issue with the master cylinder?
edk83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 08:00 AM   #4
Oz
Senior Member
 
Oz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Jersey, Channel Islands
Posts: 4,072
Subframe: Other
CC: 1595
Make: Honda
ECU: DTA
Default

If you've got excessive pedal movement then there is an issue.

I know you've bled them but there could still be some air trapped somewhere, usually bubbles gather on a high point like the top of a loop or even where a pipe that goes straight actually has a slight incline on it before turning down. What method do you use for bleeding ? Ezi-Bleeds are great but they push a constant pressure through so its possible that the fluid is not pushing the bubbles out. My dad still swears by the two-person method where one pumps the pedal whilst the other opens and closes the bleed nipple as he says by giving a sharp down pump on the pedal is creates a sudden push on the fluid which would dislodge any bubbles trapped in high spots. Give a good number of pumps per wheel as the air might be trapped much further up the pipe so would take a while to find its way along the pipe through the caliper and out of the nipple so don't assume a few pumps of clean fluid means there is no air.

Also get someone to press the pedal hard and check for bulging rubber pipes, I had an issue with an old Clubbie Estate, I'd fitted new brakes and hoses as part of a refresh but one of the new hoses perished whilst still in the garage and I noticed the brakes were spongy and tracked it down to a hose that had perished and the hose was bulging under pressure.
__________________
New subframe fitting has begun - slowly

Build Thread - Standard Round Nose with K series subframe build begun
Oz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 08:31 AM   #5
gadget555
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Strichen Aberdeenshire
Posts: 1,265
Subframe: Watson
CC: 1800
Make: Rover
ECU: K maps 160 Race
Default

I have the same setup as you and had the same problem with a lot of travel in the pedal and couldn't lock the brakes up, it turned out that the new yellow tag master cylinder's have the front and rear outlets the opposite way round than the older ones. After changing the pipes round they now work how they should, I've also fitted drilled and grooved disc's with Mintex 1144 pads, these need a bit more effort when cold but after a couple of miles driving or a few good presses of the brakes then the stopping power is a lot better than standard.
gadget555 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 08:44 AM   #6
InstantCustard
Senior Member
 
InstantCustard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Whitworth, Lancashire
Posts: 5,671
Subframe: Home Made
CC: 1.8
Make: Rover
ECU: Emerald K6
Default

It certainly sounds more like trapped air or a fluid leak if there’s a lot of pedal travel.
A fluid leak will be obvious, you’ll be losing fluid!
As I said earlier, a lot of people there no they have bled the brakes only to find there’s still air in the system, there’s been a few threads recently where people have gone away and re-bled and come back and said they found a huge air bubble.
As Oz mentioned, if you have access to an extra person then the that method is always best, otherwise an eezi-bleed is a nice bit of kit for working by yourself, that’s what I usually use when my wife’s pretending to be busy!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnard View Post
couldnt be bothered to stretch that far to pull it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardonfast View Post
Haz obviously don't like custard , my Mrs spits it out to!
I love it
InstantCustard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 09:21 AM   #7
Haz
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Southport
Posts: 97
Subframe: Watson
CC: 1600
Make: Honda
ECU: Standard
Default

Same brakes same problem here. I do get a solid pedal on a 2nd pump though.

I've bled mine 3 times now using the 2 person method. I'm wodering if it's something on the drums as I've had the issue since replacing all my brakes from mini 8.4s and standard drums to MGF at the front and minifins on the back.

Could it be something to do with that weird square section pryamid adjuster thingymabob on the drums?
Haz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 12:42 PM   #8
benvvc
Senior Member
 
benvvc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: west midlands
Posts: 118
Subframe: Watson
CC: 1800
Make: Rover
ECU: standard
Default

Cheers for the replies guys. I'm using mgf calipers vented discs and standard pads and standard mini drums at the back. I've used the easy bleed system a couple of times with no difference in outcome. The pedal does get firmer if I pump it but has no greater braking force. Il try the 2 person bleed at the weekend If I get time. It doesn't pull either side under braking. Just feels like it isn't going to stop lol
benvvc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 01:04 PM   #9
AGoaty
Senior Member
 
AGoaty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Keighley, West Yorkshire
Posts: 2,722
Subframe: Watson
CC: 1796
Make: Rover
ECU: Standard
Default

Can you confirm you have checked the cylinders of both calipers and the rear slaves actually work when the pedal is pressed? You need to remove the caliper to do this and remove rear drum. With the caliper off, check the carrier sliders. These sieze up and cause problems.

Next, as Keith suggested, check the pipework. Too many get the front to rear mixed up.

Not sure if this is possible with these calipers but seen it on other cars (Inc classic Mini's), are the calipers on the correct side? The bleed screw should be at top of caliper.

If all this is correct and bled properly, the pedal should move no more than an inch before working.

Are you using the standard bias valve? I found this caused too much braking at the rear. I swapped it for a Willwood adjustable one.

Fitting braided hoses helps reduce brake pedal travel. I also have these on mine.

I have the standard Mintex road pads and shoes. Brakes are great. No servo required, even on track.
__________________
If tha does owt fo nowt, olas do it fo this 'en.
AGoaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 01:56 PM   #10
Haz
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Southport
Posts: 97
Subframe: Watson
CC: 1600
Make: Honda
ECU: Standard
Default

I've not checked my cylinders but they were brand spanking new calipers. Rears were working fine days before.

Calliper nipples facing upwards.

Braided/solid lines all around. EBC greenstuff pads, EBC drilled & grooved vented discs, EBC shoes on rear.

Yellow tag master, no servo, unknown aftermarket bias valve (also used on previous system).

I'm going to bleed it again at the weekend with more aggresive pedal actuation as suggested. I think it's something else though, I know what air in the system feels like and this isn't it.
Haz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 02:29 PM   #11
InstantCustard
Senior Member
 
InstantCustard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Whitworth, Lancashire
Posts: 5,671
Subframe: Home Made
CC: 1.8
Make: Rover
ECU: Emerald K6
Default

It still sounds like air in the system to me, you’ll be having to pump the brake because a vacuum caused by air in the system is drawing the caliper piston/pistons back in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnard View Post
couldnt be bothered to stretch that far to pull it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardonfast View Post
Haz obviously don't like custard , my Mrs spits it out to!
I love it
InstantCustard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 05:11 PM   #12
benvvc
Senior Member
 
benvvc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: west midlands
Posts: 118
Subframe: Watson
CC: 1800
Make: Rover
ECU: standard
Default

I've got the help of my uncle at the weekend so will check fronts and rears bleed them and retest. And report back
benvvc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2018, 06:02 PM   #13
AGoaty
Senior Member
 
AGoaty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Keighley, West Yorkshire
Posts: 2,722
Subframe: Watson
CC: 1796
Make: Rover
ECU: Standard
Default

Try bleeding the master cylinder first by undoing a brake pipe union. Just keep the fluid off the paint.
__________________
If tha does owt fo nowt, olas do it fo this 'en.
AGoaty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2018, 12:30 PM   #14
ardonfast
Senior Member
 
ardonfast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: dunkeswell airfeald devon
Posts: 7,648
Subframe: AMT
CC: 2000
Make: Vauxhall
ECU: dizzy/webers
Default

Drain all fluid out of system totally, it's not exspenceive!
Get some dot4 synthetic , I'm not debating fluids hear!!
Some front pads that are available, are next to USELESS!!
block the back brake pipes off totally somehow and try that?
__________________
"yuck ,more like a 3 r2"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=tb261HwQNDQ
SAY WHAT YOU BELEVE,,BELEVE WHAT YOU LIKE,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=3JhaTwP7uuk
ardonfast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2018, 01:10 PM   #15
InstantCustard
Senior Member
 
InstantCustard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Whitworth, Lancashire
Posts: 5,671
Subframe: Home Made
CC: 1.8
Make: Rover
ECU: Emerald K6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ardonfast View Post
Drain all fluid out of system totally, it's not exspenceive!

Get some dot4 synthetic , I'm not debating fluids hear!!

By DOT4 you meant DOT5.1 right?
But I’m not debating fluids here either!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnard View Post
couldnt be bothered to stretch that far to pull it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardonfast View Post
Haz obviously don't like custard , my Mrs spits it out to!
I love it
InstantCustard is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.