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Old 28-08-2018, 08:35 AM   #1
Dopeshow
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Default Brake Servo or Not?

Hi All,

Just at the point in my build where I am collecting engine bay goodies and I am in conflict whether to run a brake servo or not. I had experience 20 odd years ago when I had a 1380 which I ran on normal 12" disc without a servo. It was ok and did stop, but with neally 200bhp i know its going to be i different story. I have the 4 pot mini sport brakes up front with mini fins on the rear, so does anyone have any real life experiences rather then just a say so?

When I collected my brake kit from Mini Sport they discussed the option of running a remote single line servo just connected to the front brakes as they suggested most track minis run set ups like this, I must admit after thinking about it I am not sure if I like the sound of this set up. Again any suggestions would be appricated.

Cheers.
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Old 28-08-2018, 09:33 AM   #2
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My question is when you have more power, you do not necessarily need more braking power. Your Mini will have the same ability to stop as it weighs very similar to a A series powered one.

The difference becomes where your new engine allows you to go faster. Stopping distances at say over 100mph are far greater than normal road driving.

I don't have a brake servo on my Mini (Phoenix). Been on track a few times and improved the brakes each time. Better pads, braided brake hoses and remove the standard brake bias valve to swap for an adjustable one. I would think is is more important being the Honda engine is heavier than mine. People who drive Phoenix now cannot believe the brakes don't have a servo. I can lock the wheels at 100mph (although does take some pressing). You cannot get any better than that.



If you want a modern car type braking system then go for the servo. It will obviously make actually pressing the pedal easier.
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Old 28-08-2018, 11:23 AM   #3
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It depends how you are going to use the car, for me I want it as easy as possible to drive so thats why I fitted a servo. If I was to do it again I would fit a COP kit which I am doing at the minute so that the servo position doesn't need to be modified to clear the distributor.
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Old 28-08-2018, 03:49 PM   #4
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A servo just makes it easier to press the pedal it doesnít improve the amount of braking you have.
Brakes are designed to stop the weight of the vehicle and not the BHP, with more BHP comes higher speeds, braking from higher speeds generates more heat, if youíve upgraded to vented discs then youíve already won half the battle, decent set of pads and youíll be fine.
I used to run standard Mini 2 pots with 180bhp and they used to stop me just fine, Iíd suffer with brake fade if I was being really brave sometimes but since upgrading to vented discs and MiniSport 4ís Iíve had no issues since.
Fit a servo if you want the pedal to feel more modern, not because youíll expect to have better brakes from fitting it.


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Old 28-08-2018, 05:45 PM   #5
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Thanks for the feedback.

I worded my originial post wrong where i mentioned 200bhp. Really i should have said i will asking my car to stop from higher speeds. Totally understand that fitting a servo does not increase the braking force it just makes the pedal easier to press. So I guess my question is more about drivabilty, but looking at the replies above i think my general question has been answered, so much appricated
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Old 28-08-2018, 06:00 PM   #6
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I run a servo on the front brakes only as you described in your initial post. This was what Geoff Watson suggested to me when I bought stuff from him for my build. I'm only running the MGZR 1.4 so only around the 105 BHP mark but I still like the "feel" of the braking. As Andrew said, it's a modern feel to the braking but I it gives me more confidence even if it's not really improving the actual brake effect
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Old 29-08-2018, 12:23 AM   #7
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Andrews mini has grate brakes, I can tell you first hand, but Andrew has nice big rover front brakes, I raced for years on just cooper,S discs and never even thought that they weren't any good, time goese on , in what seemed like 1 year had passed and I wake up and I'm 50, odd, I find myself in a mini with factory fit survo, I convert roters to minisport 4 pots , vents and fit 10 inch wheels , the factory fit survo is a pane where it is but I liked the set up on that mini, I don't know where the Thierry comes from that a servo don't put more pressure on the pads ,? Ofcource it dose ,
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Old 29-08-2018, 06:28 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by B.Bumble View Post
I run a servo on the front brakes only as you described in your initial post. This was what Geoff Watson suggested to me when I bought stuff from him for my build. I'm only running the MGZR 1.4 so only around the 105 BHP mark but I still like the "feel" of the braking. As Andrew said, it's a modern feel to the braking but I it gives me more confidence even if it's not really improving the actual brake effect
Thanks for the reply, interesting to hear someone else running the servo on the front brakes only. Must admit the more I look into it the more viable i think it is. I was speaking with my friends father who raced mini's for two decades and this was the set up he ran.
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Old 29-08-2018, 06:32 AM   #9
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It depends how you are going to use the car, for me I want it as easy as possible to drive so thats why I fitted a servo. If I was to do it again I would fit a COP kit which I am doing at the minute so that the servo position doesn't need to be modified to clear the distributor.

I would love to go down this route but to be honest I am worried about getting the motor running in the first instance without complicating things further. This is the first time I have ever built a car so my automotive experience is too limited.

Have you brought a conversion kit or are you doing it on the hop ?
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Old 29-08-2018, 06:38 AM   #10
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I don't know where the Thierry comes from that a servo don't put more pressure on the pads ,? Ofcource it dose ,

No it doesnít, it makes it easier to put pressure on the pads, but it doesnít put more on, you can put the same amount of pressure on the pads without the servo and easily lock them up, you just have to press the pedal harder.


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Old 29-08-2018, 07:49 AM   #11
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Actually technically shaun is correct, say for instance you can apply a maximum 100kg of force using your leg onto the brake pedal, without a servo you will be putting 100kg into the master cylinder, with a servo with a ratio of 1.5:1 you will be putting 150kg into the master cylinder. At higher speeds the increased wheel inertia means it requires more effort to overcome the grip of the tyres to get to the point of locking up - a servo will help with this, also if you are not having to stamp on the pedal you will have more control at the point of locking the brakes (just before locking being the most efficient braking). Personally i wouldn't run a powerful mini without one as i believe it gives more control and better feel as well as increased confidence, and the argument that the increased power doesn't matter as the weight is the same is mute as increased power means higher speeds can be reached before the next braking point therefore more powerful braking is required
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Old 29-08-2018, 07:58 AM   #12
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I could easily lock up my brakes at high speed with the 2 pots, never mind the 4 pots.
The extra force you could technically apply with a servo isnít required, I get what your saying about it being more controllable but Iíve never found Iíve had to put much effort into pressing my pedal so Iíve never struggled to control the braking, I get great feel as to whatís happening the second I touch the pedal too, so no sooner do I feel a lock up, Iím releasing the pedal again, I just wish I had that control in my accelerator!
I realise why people feel more confident running one, I just personally feel itís unnecessary and I believe I have more than ample braking for my setup without it already.



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Old 29-08-2018, 08:08 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopeshow View Post
I would love to go down this route but to be honest I am worried about getting the motor running in the first instance without complicating things further. This is the first time I have ever built a car so my automotive experience is too limited.

Have you brought a conversion kit or are you doing it on the hop ?
I'm sure you will get it running, it looks very complicated but its not really. I'm making it myself, I've made the mounting plate and have the coil packs and plugs just need to do a bit of setting up when I get the time. I'm struggling with my tracking at the minute so want to get that sorted first.
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Old 29-08-2018, 03:46 PM   #14
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Just a later observation , lighharted point, if danno and Andrew try a survo it seems you will have better brakes! Reason being you won't be locking up at 110 mph servo also stops lock up! I admit I have changed my opinion in later years , there time for you youngsters to learn in advance lol,
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Old 29-08-2018, 04:42 PM   #15
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Quote:
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Just a later observation , lighharted point, if danno and Andrew try a survo it seems you will have better brakes! Reason being you won't be locking up at 110 mph servo also stops lock up! I admit I have changed my opinion in later years , there time for you youngsters to learn in advance lol,

I really donít believe I will have better brakes, I will certainly have a pedal thatís easier to press.
I can, if I chose to, lock up my wheels at high speeds, this surely means I have plenty of braking and Iím able to use all of the braking I need without a servo, if I couldnít lock up the wheels at high speed then Iíd think I need some assistance, donít get me wrong I have to hit the pedal hard, but I donít find it an issue pressing the pedal hard enough, Iím donít have legs like Popeyes arms either.
I really donít understand how a servo would help me prevent locking up!?? Love to hear how that works?
Andrew has a completely different setup to me, his definitely feel more modern and assisted despite not having a servo, mine definitely feel like Mini brakes, Iíve not driven Gazís car and Iíd have to drive it like my own car to get a good feel for it but Iíd be interested to see if he gets the same feel as I do from my non assisted setup, likewise Iíd like to see what he makes of mine, although it would probably be better for someone try both cars thatís unbiased!
Itís purely down to personal preference wether to servo or not, but in my opinion a well maintained (including fluid changes), correctly adjusted setup definitely doesnít NEED a servo, I can understand that it would make it easier to drive for some people, but I found driving my car simple enough (although most people will struggle with my super short throw gears)





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